I typically don't do either way. I have found that with my attention deficit I cannot use the drip method because I get distracted and forget, thus causing a water event... I do float the bag to equalize temperature, but I do not cut the bag in the tank. I empty the fish and it's water into a container and then pour about a cup of my tank water in the container every 5 to 10 minutes until I have doubled the amount in the container. I then move just the fish into the tank and discard the water in the container. And when I say tank, I mean quarantine tank.
Cindy I do as Blake suggested and the most important thing is to QT the fish as most of our reef tanks are MUCH HIGHER SALINITY then the LFS are. They tend to keep their tanks at 1.019 or even less to help controll parisites. Unlike popular believe saltwater fish process the salt out of the water to consume it internally. They can adjust to lower salinity much easier then a rise. Any rise past .001 is not recommended for most and is deadly for some. People womder why a few weeks out or even months a fish dies or contacts ich or a bacterial infection and all the PARIMS IN MY TANK ARE PERFECT and I can't figure out what happened??, he was eating great and looked great. You need a QT up and running as this is becoming a real problem now days as more and more people are keeping corals now and we run these reef tanks at such a high salinity. It used to be most tanks were kept at lower salinity levels as they were fish tanks with a very few corals and hypo wasn't used and the levels at the LFS wasn't being kept so low. When you get the fish don't take the stores word for the salinity level. Float the bag for a short time to equalize the temp., then open it up and check the salinity and pour in a warm container or you can do as I do and roll the bag down some and clamp to the tank rimm witha sqeeze clamp and let it hang in the tank so it stays the same temp. as the tank. I then do as Blake suggested and add a cup of water every 20 mins. or so and I remove a little from the bag beforehand as the bag can't hold as much as a bucket, but I kike keeping the bag in the tank for temp. Depending on the fish, angels, anthias, any of the smaller ones and some of the more touchy tangs and triggers I may acclimate for a coulple hours. The bag in the tank method is important doing it this way for temp.. You well have to add RO water to the QT to lower the salinity to match the bag water most likely. The other parim that is vitally important to most is PH. Unless the fish was ordered online and shipped this shouldn't be a concern. The PH should be, most say within .2 to .3 and you well need to put a few drops of vineger in the QT to lower the PH. to match. Even if most don't believe they need to QT for ich and such, today with the high salinity in reef tanks most fish well not make it going from anything much over .002 higher in salinity in a matter of hours. I forgot after the fish is in the QT let the evaporation raise the salinity which should take a few days. Also if the fish was ordered online or has been in the bag a long time, ammonia becomes a problem and you need to forget the above time frame and get him out of the bag. Float the bag for a short period to help get the temp close and match the ph and salinity in the QT to the bag and add the fish to the QT without adding cups of water. The most important thing is to get him out of the ammonia, and remember that products like prime or any AMMONIA REMOVER PRODUCT AND COPPER ARE VERY TOXIC when combined, so if there has ever been any copper in the QT, don't use any of those products in the QT. If the ph and salinty match and the temp is close he well be fine.
My system of aclimation depends on the condition of the fish as John suggested. If the fish looks distressed it is more important to get it out of the bad water and into better water as soon as temp is equal. Salinity can be adjusted in the aclimation container with RO water and raised slowly, I understand it would be best to place in a quarantine tank and raise it over a few days, but sometimes it's just not done. Always check the water in the bags and adjust as necessary. My opinion is the sooner I can get the fish out of a stressful bag the better it will be. What works for me may not work for someone else, just get a system and stick with it. Nothing in this hobby does more harm than change.
I totally disagree with you on the salinity issue. I know you don't believe in QT's and if the fish gets sick it hits the porecelyn bowl, but the fact still remains that most fish cannot take a large salinity change or PH, which isn't usally an issue unless buying online. The reason now days more then ever for a QT is for these reasons. A salinity change of over .001 in less then half a day well damage the orgins that process the salt out of the water in fish. I'm not a marine biologist so I can't give you all the scientific wordings, but it is a fact and there is nothing any of us can do about it. There are several articles that have been written on it. Some years ago flame angels were dying a few weeks after being in the tank and for no apparent reason and no one could figure out why. Later it was figured out to be salinity and ph problems in shipment from the collectors. Now days it is not an issue with them anymore if they are handled and acclimated right. There are many others including most all angels, anthias and triggers. Look on RC the is several articles on it and it has saved thousands of fish since this has been found. You can't leave a fish long enough in a bag to change the salinity to what our reef tanks are at.
Norman here is just one post by one of the best in the hobby, I believe he is a marine biologest and he has several large tank setups. He sometimes goes a little overboard, but what the hay, some of you think I do to, but in my opinion it is better to be that way for the sake of the animals [and money, that ought to get your attention] but he is not the only one that agrees with ph and SALINITY and the use of a QT being needed with the salinity being so high in todays tanks verses the LFS tanks. http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27023
John, I just want to clear one thing up as you took a joke I said and turned it into something I do on a regular basis. I do not flush sick fish. It also dosen't take a money issue to get my attention. You have my attention every time you post. I state in most of my posts that this is my opinion and the way I do things. Just because you don't agree with it or it's not the way you do it my fish don't die on a regular basis. Just look at the success I have compared to others you know. If as you say a .001 salinity changes damages the organs, How do you explain the monsoon rains over a shallow reef at low tide. I cannot believe the oceans of the world never change salinity anymore than .001 in a half a days time. If you are going to quote such things as fact, show more than a link I can't access unless I register on a public forum that anyone can express their opinion. There are many novice reef keepers on this forum and they take a lot of what you say, from your many years of experience, as the correct way to do things. All I ask is that you remember this when you post. I don't always do things the way other people say do it and that works for me.
Since we're on a salinity discussion, lets see what happends to a fish from capture to getting in your system. These will be broad strokes and again my opinion, but I do have some experience in most aspects of this process. When the fish is captured, either by net, trap, chemical treatment, or whatever process they use, it is in seawater at the salinity for that location, temp, time of year, or whatever circumstances determines the salinity at that given time. It is placed in a container with other fish from that capture trip and transfered to holding tanks, again with the same seawater. After holding for an undetermined amount of time they are bagged and flown to a holding facility, usually a transshipper and placed in synthetic seawater for the first time at whatever salanity they happen to be. .001 is not much tolerance to work with. I find it hard to believe that that shipper is going to check every bag and match salinity and ph to match the shipping water. They are held there until sold to a distributor and the process is repeated again. The distributor ships the fish again to a retail store, and if you have ever watched a store receive fish they usually have several buckets or tubs, set them in front of whatever tank and on whatever system they plan to place the fish in. They then start opening the bags and dump the contents into the same bucket for that tank not checking any water conditions at all. They then start adding water to the buckets from the tank they will be held in. These buckets and tubs are usually sitting on the concrete floor in an open room. Temperature is never checked. After dumping what they believe is the correct amount of tank water in the bucket with all the fish from all the bags, they dump them all in the tanks and you and I go in and buy them. After all this, I think if we take an hour or so, which is what most people recomend, we are giving them the best care since their capture. When we look at the whole process, if the fish has a problem it probably is not caused from out acclimation process. Again just my opinion.
Norman sorry about the link, didn't know you had to be registered. It wouldn't take you but a couple minutes and its a very good site. Lee Birch is a marine biologist and has numerous tanks. He is very highly regarded, kinda like Randy Holmes Farley and Boomer in chemistry. I guess the difference between you and I is that I listen and try to learn from the people who know wayyyyy more then I ever well. I don't know personally how a fishes internals work, but I do believe there are ones that do. I didn't anywhere in my post say this is my way of doing things, and that it is the only way, I said that it is what very knowledgable people have foumd to be FACT. I have done acclimation differently in the past and have lost fish for no apparent reason weeks down the road. It happened with a couple flame angels and after loosing 2, I went about trying to find out why and came across info about acclimating and the importance of salinity and ph. Haven't lost a fish for no apparent reason since and that has been 6 or 7 yrs now. The amount of rain that falls on even a shallow reef is nill compared to the water it is falling into volume wise. Also that would be lowering the salinity and as I ahve stated that is alot more tolerated then the other way from what I have read. The fish can also swim elsewhere if need be. The fish collected are pretty much kept in their native water until arriving state side and then I would hope are acclimated properly. I believe that most collectors today are up to par on the latest knowledge reported and written about by people like Lee Birch and Eric Boreman, and Anthony Calfo to name a few. The biggest issue is with the LFS, alot have very inexperienced kids working there and the others don't give a damn. That don't make it right and alot of fish die from mis handling at the LFSs. Can most fish survive a small salinity change higher, some or most can, but say from 1.019 to 1.025 or 6, NO! A few may make it, but alot won't. I too stated that a fish shipped from an online source should be out of the bag as soon as possible, but into a QT that has been adjusted. No one in this hobby should be without one, either setup and cycled, or sitting in a closet ready to be filled and used if needed. The little amount it cost to get a basic 20 or 30 gal tank and a heater and a box filter is nill compared to what can happen if you aren't prepared and wipe out a whole tank. Take a few minutes and register and read his article. I'll try to find some more elsewhere.
Norman One more thing, I know that there are mostly novices asking questions, that is a good thing and I can assure you knowone takes it more seriously then me and I always try to give the bestthat I have from years of experience and years of learning from lots of research. Is it the only way?, no, but it well always error on the side of being overly concerned about the info in the animals favor. Find me somewhere that someone with their knowledge says that what I have stated isn't a scientific fact, and if it is, then shouldn't we try to do it that way????????????
I wonder if it well work off of Reef Sanctuary. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/27305-acclimation-i-know.html This link works without having to register on RS, read and see what you think????
why do these conversations always turn into a big fuss.... its conversations like this that DIRECTLY cause me grief.... its an arguement just like this one that caused my wife to say forget asking anything else which led in turn to her never coming to a meeting again....any now i fight for every new tank item i get. what i think everyone else should take from all of this is that EVERYONE has strong opinions in different directions and if i add my personal opinion it would differ from both again.. as would probably more others. i value all of their opinions to a point.... what i see from both sides is that they each chose a direction and Stuck with it.... less change in process is always found to be better there is no one "you must do it this way" to anything in this hobby if there was we wouldnt need to do anything but follow the rulebook and be successful..... anytime you find any scientist stating this is the way you can find 10 others stating this is why he is wrong.. personal experience is the only FACT that i will go with , im always open for change but until i prove it works for myself i wont try to sell it as fact to anyone else.... both john and normal both have amazing systems and something is working for both of them..so much can be learned from their personal experiences and neither can be totally wrong ... but dont be afraid to do what works for you personally even if it dont fit into the "normal" way of doing things.......
Mike, that is exactly what I am saying and I make it a point to say it is my opinion and the way I do it. Works for me, may not work for you. As far as an argument goes John is a friend of mine and just because we disagree dosen't mean we are mad at each other. I didn't see this as an agrument, just different ways to go about it. I totaly agree that a quarantine tank is the way to go, But with the amount of fish and corals I deal with I am having to come up with something that will work for me. It is comments like yours that keep me from posting as much as I would like on this forum. Seems every time I post on a subject I feel strongly about I end up in a controversy. If anyone wants to ask my opinion, or how I do a particular thing please call me as my coments on this forum will be limited in the future.
ljinks To bad you and your wife feel that way. These kind of debates are good for the club as it lets people see the different ways and ideas that are out there. Norman and I are good friends as are Ralph and I. As long as things are kept CIVIL even in a heated exchange I see nothing wrong with it. Norman and I had a long conversation today mainly about his flat worm problem and very little of the conversation was about the post yesterday as it wasn't that big a deal. Lee Birch is not a scientist in the sense that I think of scientist, he doesn't say how old the earth is or how man came to be, he is a marine biologist and over 40 yrs of experience and if you can find someone to disagree with his biological knowledge of the fish anatomy please post it for us all to read. I have never heard of anyone that disagrees with him. If you can't learn anything from that link, then I don't know what to say, as he is one of the best. I can see nothing wrong with a civil debate of different ideas and I for one do not want Norman not posting on here, he has valuable ideas and that spawns other ideas to be put forth and they may not agree with his or mine which is good, but hopefully it well help the newbies. Maybe like Ralph said it might be the way I say things, that could be as I ain't much for beating around the bush and I am as you have probably figured out by now pretty opinionated, but I am always open to opinions as that is where I have gotten alot of my knowledge from plus a few years of doing this.
John, Norman .... I'm sorry to both of you.... . I value both of your opinions , it just seems like the original posters question gets lost in all the heated exchange ... which in turn leads a lot of folks not even reading through the material. the reason i read through these posts is because you guys make a strong arguments about your positions... i may not take it to heart always but i do absorb the idea and look at it as a possibility for some of my own failures when dealing with situations. Norman... you know how i feel about your opinions your usually the first one i goto for ideas on things , you are a close friend and i dont want you to feel like its not worth saying anything because its just going to turn into a debate. that was far from the point of my rant. i just want you both to understand alot time the best way to get good info out to other members is keep it simple ... i think Cindy's original question was more of which way do most people do it , and now i think due to this lengthy discussion instead of getting 50 responses of " this is how i do it" we ended up with only about 4 peoples opinions i for one would rather see everyone state their way and if someone in particular is doing something we ALL know to be horrible we can discuss that further. being able to ask these types of questions here and get a lot of feedback from members is a good way for us to decide which way to go with seminars and group meeting discussions.... maybe every other member out there just feels like acclimation is a weak point for them personally and if they had a chance to just say that without stirring a heated debate we as a club would know that we need to put together a lecture on it.. i for one would love to hear the "clubs" position on more basic things like acclimation, water changes, QT, buying fish straight from the truck when it hits the store. those types of things are great for education purposes... heck i would love to hear JOHN give a lecture on QT ( from his own point of view.) if we as a club can help people start in this hobby with good habits up front instead of learning by their mistakes and Then asking why i think we would see alot of people getting into it.... i cant count the number of times I've heard "saltwater is SOOO much work" and had to defend that with proper planning and good info up front it doesn't have to be Norman is Full of useful information that he just loves to share... even when someone like my 8 yr old goes to Norman's he takes the time to answer ANY question he has wither it be Fish/ bonsai or birds or another of a million other things has done in his life. to this day it still amazes me that Norman has gotten into so many animal related things .
I guess when we feel pasionate about something we tend to be protective of our positions. I just want new people on the forums to know there are 100 or more different ways to do something depending on who you talk to. I enjoy talking to anyone, especially the kids, about any of the things I have been involved in over the years and appreciate the kind words. I will continue to help the club in any way I can. Hope to do better in the future. Chris is always telling me I'm too matter of fact, meaning it either is, or it isn't, no middle ground. Thats the way I see most things and that works for me, may not for anyone else and I am sorry if I offend. Remember I am old and set in my ways, and when two of us square off there may be some fireworks. Not like M-80's, more like sparklers !!!
In the past I have floated the bag to equalize the temp, put in a few cups of water over twenty minutes or so and in they go. If I was bringing the fish home from say Dallas alot of times I would just shotgun them to get them out of the bag full of ammonia very rarely would I ever lose a fish. Would I recommend shotgunning to new folks.. NO but I knew the risks and at times would take it. As my father taught me at a young age there is more than one way to skin a cat and sometimes you just got to experiment and do what works best for YOU.
I think we are talking 2 different things here. There are opinions and there are facts. Fact} Smoking kills, causes heartattacks, strokes, preaging, lung cancer, enphzema, etc. etc. That is not an opinion, but a fact, and as tech. moves along I'm sure that that well change to include more. My Grandma and Uncle died from strokes, one of my Grandfathers died from emphzema, probably from smoking 2 packs aday, who knows for sure, but if I was to bet, I would put my money on smoking. It wasn't that long ago everyone smoked, including me, but I quit 30 yrs ago because of what was being learned and so have alot of other people and it has kept I'm sure alot of would be's from not starting Opinion} Hell my grandfather smoked 3 packs a day and drank a fifth of JD every evening and he lived to be 103. I think all this scientific stuff is a big pile of BS. Good for your grandfather, does it make it a FACT that smoking and drinking are good for you or that they well do most of the population no harm? You form your opinion, I'll form mine and neither well change the FACTS!!! When it comes to the lives of these animals it is my opinion that we should do everything we can do, to do it right and as new info becomes available, it is my opinion that we ought to be open to the experts and what they are taking the time out of their lives to try and help us further our knowledge. Does that mean taking some time out of our lives to search and read and learn and be open to new tech. as it comes along? QT's serve more then just a place to treat animals, read the link if you have time. The FACT still remains that they SAVE LIFES, and help the fish adjust, and no OPINION can dispute that. If your opinion is to have one or not is up to you. ljinks I did give a samll talk on QT's last year at the meeting at my house in I think May, guess you weren't able to make it. It takes me alot of time to make these long post, as I am a hunt and peck typist, so I do it because of my concern for the animals mostly, but also trying to make life easier for the person. When it comes to life and death facts and knowledge for the animals I well post the facts and knowledge and most learnt from others as often as I can, along with my opinions when I have one, if ot offends some I'm sorry and well try to be more low keyed about it in the future, but there is a difference betwwen OPINIONS and FACTS.
